Point of Contact to Corner Work

[Super Dave]

Hey, I'll sticky this until it shakes out.

Great thread!

[Suzy]

On the other hand, maybe also pushing towards the sanctioning bodies to also come together and develop a national standard set of flags and there purposes may be feasible.  On paper none of this seems like it should be all that difficult to accomplish but I'm old enough to know better on that one.

I agree with you here 110%. There should be one standard training and flags for ALL Cornerworkers. Maybe some riders here on the forum who race more than one orginization can answer this question 'cause I'm curious.....

Does it get confusing? Do you forget which flag is which when racing, or in other words, do you forget who uses what flag? 

[TheHiriser]

Racers shouldn't get confused, after all they read the rule book for each org they race with front to back, right?   

Between CCS and WERA the only flag I'm aware of that is different is the Pickle flag for liquid debris/oil, which WERA uses.

The AMA uses one more flag than those two orgs which is the blue flag.  As far as what the cornerworkers use here is what they have from their rulebook.
 
 b. Warning Flags / Lights
1. Yellow Flag with Red Stripes: Indicates debris, fluid or a potentially
hazardous situation on or near the track. Passing is allowed.
Exercise caution.
2. Lime Green with Black Stripes: Indicates the possibility of oil on
the track. Passing is allowed. Exercise caution.
3. Yellow Flag / Light
a. Stationary Yellow Flag: Indicates a potentially hazardous
situation on or near the track. Passing is allowed. Exercise
caution.
b. Waving Yellow Flag/Yellow Light: Indicates serious hazards
on or near the track. Proceed with caution. Passing is not
allowed from the flag stations displaying the waving yellow flag
until the rider is beyond the incident. Violations will be
determined from corner worker reports or other evidence
deemed appropriate by the Race Manager.
4. White Flag with Red Cross: Indicates that ambulances, safety
vehicles or emergency personnel are on the course. Exercise
caution.
c. Courtesy Flags
1. White Flag: Indicates the final lap of a race.
2. White and Green Flags Crossed: Indicates 1/2 total race distance.
3. Blue Flag: Indicates you are about to be overtaken by faster
riders. Hold your line and do not impede their progress. Riders
disregarding this flag may be black-flagged at the discretion of
Race Manager.

They also use the black flag but it would seem being displayed with a number board would mean it is only at Start/Finish.

6. Black Flag: Indicates a problem with your motorcycle or a
disqualification. Number board displayed with the flag indicates the
rider being signaled. Carefully reduce speed and stop at the first
suitable location off the course.

I would think since most (not all) riders at some point aspire to be in the AMA or dream about it why not push for their flags to be the standard.  If all the racing orgs were on the same page we would be forced to abide by their standards for flags, not the other way around.  They after all don't have to let us play with them.  This is just one aspect of the entire picture and the whole flag deal to me is a baby step but a step in the right direction and definitely a start.  The only flaw to this plan I see is if someone thinks there should be additional flags added in the rotation from what the AMA uses.

Now all CW orgs being trained on other aspects of race safety is a totally different animal and should be left entirely up to CW orgs.  I agree with what everyone else has already stated.  Our training above and beyond flags and general procedures is something that could be developed more thoroughly and standardized.  Maybe I'm naive but if a congress of CW orgs met once already to no avail what would make anyone think another meeting of the minds would work?  Was the purpose of that meeting specifically for what we are discussing now?  Or was this brought up in conjunction to the original purpose of the meeting?  I think if two or more of the bigger CW orgs banded together first and developed a comprehensive training package, others would most certainly follow if it became known as the standard.  I know of a couple smaller private groups that use MARRC's training as a prerequisite-requisite for working in their group.  They must complete our training and work with us a weekend before they are allowed to work for them on track.  Not tooting MARRC's horn but this further emphasizes if a "standard" was developed, others would follow. 

Maybe I'm not seeing the entire picture here but my only qualm about a "rating system" is if you rate someone a number and then fall short with worker turnout, how do you justify asking them to work in a position you previously stated they were not qualified for?  I understand this would help on a national level when going to tracks you aren't familiar with where CW orgs aren't familiar with you. I for one wouldn't want to have the highest rating and then be asked to work a track the first time in the highest rated zone because they were short the highest rating and yes I know I can always say no, I just don't like being put in those sort of situations where I'd feel like I'm letting someone down.  I like to be familiar with the track before I put myself into those sort of situations.  Doing a hot lap in a car or being handed a track map to me doesn't justify knowing the track.  It takes time to learn the different lines, speeds and other workings of each and every turn and even then things are never predictable.   I'm not suggesting different ratings for different tracks.  I just don't see how it would work flawlessly at this point.  I could be missing something and I'm not knocking it completely I do think it could be a good idea. Someone might have the answers and explanations to all my concerns that would make me change my mind.  I can see how it would be beneficial in knowing what you are getting when someone shows up out of the blue who doesn't have the same issues I'd have working an unknown track.

And for the record I am one of the ones that will step out onto a hot track with bikes coming at me.  Some say I'm insane and some say I've been lucky.  Every time I do it however I think of a million things in a split second.  A lot of my decision making process is based upon which group of riders is on track at that particular time.  With experts I tend to be more trusting.  Amateurs on track and I'm way more cautious.  Bike size and speeds also plays a big factor, which turn I'm in, all sorts of things.  A new track with riders I don't know?  I'd be less inclined to jump out there on good faith. 

Another .02 (I'll go broke keeping this up)

[on your corner]

All thoughtful points.  Good discussion. 

I always like defer to what the Pros are doing.  Up until the last 10 or 15 years the AMA had a pretty simple flag system.  Then some folks sorta decided on some changes without a real consensus from riders on what it is that is necessary and what is unnecessary as far as flags.  I don't agree with some flagging procedures of my own organization.  I think all groups and sanctioning bodies need to study what information the riders need and can process at speed on the racetrack.  I think, without a study like this having been done, that the FIM flagging system is good with the exception that there is no stationary yellow in FIM.  A stationary yellow, I feel, has its place when used judiciously.  Now as far as what would be judicious, that is what I seek to nail down for all the groups and sanctioning bodies.  I find that certain people can consistently be judicious and others can not. 

This is where a rating system comes in.  After ample opportunity to learn, someone on com. who cannot remain calm enough to report as an incident happens shouldn't be doing com.  Someone who is reluctant to go on to a hot track when it is reasonable to do so shouldn't be doing pickup.  Someone who is asleep at the flag staition when you need a waving yellow shouldn't be flagging.  For the same reasons that Paramedics can do more than EMTs, we need to have a system that can certify us for the jobs we do.  Without it we are treated as just warm bodies that may or may not be an asset to the racing.

If we are able to describe concisely what are the best practices and potential cornerworkers are able to learn these practices from reading the documents and live training, then we will be able to gain respect and status from consistently contributing to making the racing safer. 

My impression of the meeting years back was that it was just to see if the groups had any common ground for possibly standardizing what we do.  Everybody's got their opinion.  Without some study and some science it is only opinion.  The US Marshalls have found some practices and techniques over the last 35 years that seem to work well and we are in the process of documenting them in writing.  I'd love to see what every group does so that we can find common practices and techniques that the racing organizers and riders can agree might be the best practices and techniques.

Ed

[Eric Kelcher]

Well there are two flags I do not see a need for.

Blue flag means rider to hold your line, that is a rule and if it is not displayed the rider can be erratic ??? The response from most riders is exact opposite and even the encouraged response at AMA races.
This is not car races where the track width is sometimes an issue to making safe passes and is then a move over flag.


Green and Black flag, we will not race with oil on race surface

so those two flags wil not be utilized by CCS/ASRA with their current meanings.

[RoadRaceJunkie]

Agree that these flags are unnecessary.  Blue flagging just isn't practical with current operational procedures anywhere and many of those who need to heed the flag don't know how.  Never understood why an additional flag was necessary to indicate possible non-optimum traction.   The four basic flags were enough for me when I raced.  There's only so much information a racer needs and/or can process.  Need a University study or similar to learn what it is exactly that racers have to have and how best it be presented to them. 
I have always thought that flashing yellow and red lights, properly placed in each particular turn for best visibility and lighted picture signs- for the slippery flag and Ambulance flag would free a person from having to flag 100% of time and put 'em where they are needed more- in the corner picking up.  Addtionally there would be no false red flags if the red lights were solely controlled by Race Control.
Duh... some of these ideas seem like no-brainers that should have been adopted a long time ago.

Ed
RoadRaceJunkie
Changed screen name from "On Your Corner"

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Ed thing about the light system is reliability. Also where to install the poles.

Sad thing is theres way too many racers who DONT either understand the current flags, nor actully follow them (ie someone getting a debris flag waveoff and just keeps going). We still have people passing under waving yellows AND reds. Honestly the flags for CCS are simple. I dont understand why some people just cant comprehend them.

Actually I miss the blue flag. Came in handy when I was out there on teh track and the leaders were coming up. I knew that I was gonna get lapped within 10-15 seconds.

[RoadRaceJunkie]

I compare what we do in club races and national races and then look at what the FIM does... Looks to me like every racer from every region has some differing ideas as to what the flags mean.  Rarely have I seen blue flags actually achieve the purpose- for a number of different reasons.  I would think the FIM would be the last word in what it is the racers need and want. But when I see a GP without a flag station in the proper place(s) I wonder who has a clue. 
My idea for lights is solely based on what would be ideal for the racers in each corner.  A system for hanging the lights at each track would have to be devised for each corner.  Pay enough humans to do flagging long enough and you've put in a light system.  I propose that local flags (lights) would be controlled by the workers on the corner or Race Control- as necessary.  The red from Race Control only.  A light pattern/system certainly could be configured so no racer could say "I didn't see the flag".

Ed

[limy_1]

I have been talking over on the advanced training thread and it was requested that I post over here 

Anyway I have been going on  for the entire second page of that thread.

http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,18408.msg159473.html#new

There is good information about racing and working in Canada.
Flags are a little different but they are organized.

[Dr. Evil]

I cornerwork at Summit Point when I can, but I live close to VIR.  I really haven't found "the path" to cornerworking at VIR or anyother track for that matter.  The only way I got hooked up at Summit Point was because of the MARRC website.

[limy_1]

I see a bunch of you posting on the WERA site today.

Anytime you want to work with WERA let Sean know.
Anytime you want to work with AHRMA let Cindy know.
I am sure the same holds true with CCS.

Look me up if you find your way to an AHRMA race or
a WERA North Central race.

[bambam]

 great thread and lots of good information.  it seems as though maarc and usm are both in favor of making a standard system so why not start with you 2 and then go from there. of course it would be awesome if you could first get ccs and wera to have similar flags and / or get both of them to adopt the ama or fim standard. since there are really only 4 main groups ( fim ( moto gp and wsb) ama, ccs, and wera) and their affiliates that hold races in the US.  i would think that having a standard flag set nationwide would take miles out of the journey to a national corner working association.

 just my $.02 worth  to go with a thank you for doing what you do so we can do what we do a little safer.

[limy_1]

WERA adopted the pickle flag last year but I don't see them using the blue flag anytime soon.
Remember that WERA is now AMA sanctioned for their National events.

AHRMA I don't think will ever adopt either of these flags and they are also AMA sanctioned.

[truckstop]

My idea for lights is solely based on what would be ideal for the racers in each corner.  A system for hanging the lights at each track would have to be devised for each corner.  Pay enough humans to do flagging long enough and you've put in a light system.  I propose that local flags (lights) would be controlled by the workers on the corner or Race Control- as necessary.  The red from Race Control only.  A light pattern/system certainly could be configured so no racer could say "I didn't see the flag".

Hi y'all. Just tried out corner working for the first time this past weekend and so I've been poking around a bit since I hope to do it more often next season. Since I typically only race one race, and spend most of the weekend spectating, seems like actually doing something is a better idea. I know this is an old topic, but wanted to throw in my noob $.02.

For a little background, I'm a rider coach with STT, and CR for the BHF trackdays, mostly working with new riders and novices, and race ULWSB on a tiny old slow turd bike. I've been able to ride at quite a few different tracks in the Midwest and have been surprised in the difference in cornerworkers at different venues. Some of them over the past couple years have been trained better to handle motorcycles, and some still treat us like cars. I like the idea of standardized training, and coming up with a training platform to readjust car workers to dealing with bikes.

As a rider, I want the least number of flags possible. Four is enough.

The blue flag would be nice, but really? Its a distraction and can make things more dangerous. If a new rider tenses up thinking someone is coming, they're more likely to be unpredictable trying to get out of the way, instead of minding their own business so that the faster rider can pass. I've been lapped plenty by the fast guys, and they always manage to get it done before I even knew they were there.

As for its use along with the pickle flag in higher levels of racing, the riders have been at it longer, can process more information, and are supposedly more skilled - which is where I don't know if you can have a standardized set for all levels of racing.

Finally, as for the lights, wouldn't that be a cost incurred by the track? There are tracks out there that need to spend their money on *far* more important things than a light system. I also don't really think that lights would be any more visible than a waving flag. If a track can use lights, and can afford lights to augment flaggers, then cool - but as a rider, I'd rather see surface issues dealt with, or more air fence added, etc. and even if you add lights, you're still paying cornerworkers to work com, watch traffic, and run to pick up bikes, so there's not much of a cost savings there.

[HAWK]

Overhead lights would be missed more often. Our cornerworkers here in the midwest (I can't speak for other regions as I don't have that experience) are very good at flagging and are positioned in the corner stations to be in the line of sight as we enter the corner.