Should CCS grid by points?

[Super Dave]

At least, it's way better than giving series regulars a big (unfair) advantage over the occasional racer who is still fast.

If anyone should be rewarded, it NEEDS to be the regulars, as they finance CCS.

Any way you slice it, gridding by order of entry is more of a money-maker for CCS than gridding by points would be.

And there would still be the ability for CCS to continue making money through preentries for grids based on pre entries.


Simple basis for better sportsman type racing is this, my point of view:  keep the organization financed and reward those that commit to showing up.  Qualifying for certain races is good and adds to the show, but it would be cumbersome to do it for all twelve hundred classes.

[TommyG]

I`ve read some interesting points from several different people. Some I hadn`t even considered. Some are completely stupid. Without getting into my opinion on who`s totally f-ing stupid I`ll place my vote for whatever financially benefits CCS. I`m gonna go out on a limb and guess that`s probably the current system. There are rumors of too many weekends running at low/no profits right now for ccs to make a change without careful examination of the bottom line. I believe most racers think all racing organizations/promoters are rolling in the cash. Some are.......some are not. Better profits/better staffing/better customer service = a better racing experience.       

[Racingxtc7]

Racing organizations maintain their operations through racers continually entering races. 

This is true BUT only because raceroad organazation have grown custom to putting ALL financial burden on the racers. Ever notice that at every other type of sporting event has advertisements of all shapes and sizing. CCS could sent out a promoter to sell the idea of advertising banners for around the race track, stickers and whatever else they can think of. There's a good chance that there is one RV dealership , one Trailer dealership, one Motocycle dealer, one Truck Accessory shop, one whatever local shop near each raceway that would be willing to pay for advertisement and/or even setup a booth.

This new revenue could be the purse money, used to reduse entry fees or whatever.

GRIDDING- I like the idea of gridding based on lap times from practise. If someone is racing both a 500cc and a 1000cc bike, there laps times from the 500 will come from the lightweight practise while there lap times from the 1000 will come from there unlimited practise. Its a little more work and you'd probably not want the last prastice group be the first race, not that any of us would want that anyway.

NEW CLASSES- One class I really belive should start up again is the 250GP! There has been atless FOUR 250gp bikes at every CCS weekend(midwest) which is more than can be said for the ultra lightweight class. Plus, the class will grow quickly because some many people have them but refuse to race with CCS because to the lack of the class so they drive farther to go do an ahrma or wera event. On top of that there's people like myself that would love to race a 250gp bike but doesn't buy one because of the lack of the class.

Having the 25min GT races is great because is something different.
F40 races, you guys rock! It just as fast as the normal races.

[ahastings]

Looking at the poll it is currently about 80% for gridding by points in some way and only 20% keeping the same system. CCS are you reading this? If a system is used that more riders prefer it will increase participation.

[Super Dave]

I'll agree with Tommy that it's important for CCS to be healthy. 

I also feel that riders that race regularly help keep CCS healthy.  Keep them happier, and maybe they will decide to stay around longer than two or three years and enter five races rather than two.

[ahastings]

I started the '02 season racing exclusively WERA. Gridding by points ended up being the main reason I switched to CCS mid-season. I went to every race in my region, from the beginning of the season, and after about 4 rounds, still didn't even have any points! I started out gridded way back and just went further as the season progressed. And I don't think it was because I was slow. I switched to CCS and immediately started finishing consistently in the top 3, and won several regional championships the next season.

First of all WERA only gives points back to 15th where CCS gives points back to around 25th or so. If you can't get to the top 25 or even the top 15 by the end of the race before you have points then you probably shouldn't be gridded up front anyway just because you got your pre-entry in early. I find it hard to believe that if you were fast enough to finish top 3 that you couldn't even crack the top 15 even if you were in the back of a 40+ grid.
  

[StuartV666]

I find it hard to believe that if you were fast enough to finish top 3 that you couldn't even crack the top 15 even if you were in the back of a 40+ grid.

Heh. :-) Let's see you start somewhere in the middle or back of the 2nd wave on a grid of 40+ riders and get to the top 15 in 6 (or less) laps.

I'm not sure which part you don't believe. You can (probably) check WERA race results from the beginning of '02 for FL region races. I had a couple of 17ths as my best in the 600 SS class. And you can check the CCS records from '03. I won the SE Region Overall Amateur championship (plus a couple of class championships and the Roebling track championship). And I was riding the same '00 R6, with the same motor and suspension, the whole time.

[StuartV666]

If anyone should be rewarded, it NEEDS to be the regulars, as they finance CCS.

That is EXACTLY the attitude that has bothered me so much in dealing with so many WERA regulars over the years. "This is OUR club and we should get preferential treatment."

I think that's a bunch of BS. Every racer should be treated equally. Every racer should (ideally) be able to finish the race in the position that truly reflects how fast they were compared to other people in that race. The, for example, 3rd fastest guy on the track should not be put in a position by the organizers where they can't realistically finish higher than 15th, just because they are not a regular. Rules like that REDUCE the number of entries, not increase them.

Imagine you're a "regular" in a series that grids by points and you start the season finishing well. You're getting good grid spots. Then May rolls around and you crash and break your arm and now you're out until August. August rolls around and you're ready to ride. But now you're so far down in points that you know you're going to be gridded probably in the 2nd wave of any race you enter. How appealing is that? I'd say there's a pretty good chance you might decide to skip some rounds, or maybe the whole rest of the season and, instead, focus on getting ready, physically, logistically, and finanically, for next season.

Now, in contrast, imagine you're a "regular" in CCS (with current gridding rules) and you start the season by pre-entering each race weekend 5 weeks ahead. In my experience with CCS, pre-entering just 4 weeks before has always gotten me a grid spot in the first 3 rows. So, you're still finishing well, just like in the other series. Now, May rolls around, you break your arm, and you're out until August. August rolls around and you're ready to ride. Now, you can still pre-enter 4 or 5 weeks ahead and still have a decent grid spot. How appealing is that?

A series that rewards "regulars" is a series that has decreasing appeal all through the year to the non-regulars. A series that treats everybody equally is, at least to me, a far more appealing one to participate in.

The 2nd scenario seems to me to be much more likely to keep people coming back.

[PFinn]

+1

[Super Dave]

LOL!

[Super Dave]

A series that rewards "regulars" is a series that has decreasing appeal all through the year to the non-regulars. A series that treats everybody equally is, at least to me, a far more appealing one to participate in.

The 2nd scenario seems to me to be much more likely to keep people coming back.

Seems like your opinion is from someone that isn't sure what series they go to regularly.

Equality?  When has that existed on a race track?  Ability?  Machinery?  Finances?

If a business shouldn't reward loyalty of it's best customers, then I'm betting the business isn't so healthy.

[ahastings]

"666" by your logic I suppose the Daytona ROC shouldn't be gridded by points either. Why should the people running the series all year have an advantage in the grid.
   With CCS points structure, and if they only grid the pre-entries by points, anybody with some points that pre-enters is going to be gridded reasonably near the front.

[jryer]

1. Lap times - determine grid.
2. Points - determine championship.
3. Money - enables the vision.

I know we aren't MotoGP, AMA, or FIM, but each of these organizations
basically follow this structure (leaving politics out of it).
CCS is a great organization and I'm grateful it exists. Obviously this
is not MotoGP, AMA, or FIM, but one of the things they all have in
common is lap times determine gridding position. We all agree that a
qualifing session is not possible (too many classes). However,
lap times recorded during practice sessions is an intriguing idea and
is worthy of consideration. In fact the last MotoGP gridding in Malaysia
(2006) was determined by this method (heavy rains prevented the
qualifing session). This encourages bike setup, which creates
a team mentality and places emphasizes on the need for sponsors.
Sponsors bring the much needed money (a healthy CCS). There are
logistic issues to iron out even with the recorded lap times during
practice, but it can work. The system I like least is pay first play first.
Money should not directly determine grid (indirectly of course it does).
Points is a little better but as StuartV666 has already stated, it doesn't
determine who's fastest on that day, and that's really the whole point
of running a bunch of bikes around a track (who's the quickest).
Lap times during practice gets my vote.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Screw it lets grid up by alphabetical order. Even races z-a, odd races a-z. Then switch to even race a-z and odd races z-a the next weekend.

Or maybe lets grid up by height.

[HAWK]

Screw it lets grid up by alphabetical order. Even races z-a, odd races a-z. Then switch to even race a-z and odd races z-a the next weekend.

Or maybe lets grid up by height.

But then I ALWAYS grid in the middle! WAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!