07 Rules New Topics being discussed per the ROC mailer

[racerhall]

i think that the grids should be on points and for the first race of the year it should be first come first serve, it is alot of money to pre enter for the whole year and i dont like it, and for the gt races i think they should stay they are the closest thing to a real race distance, the sprint races r to short and not enough time to make up for a mistake
my other comment is that the experts should not be on the track at the same time as the amateurs, not so much in the sprint races but in the gt races, its a problom and it is very dangerous, and i agree with i think dave said maybe get rid of unlimited superbike and just have unlimited gp,
lets get some things changed

[Protein Filled]

There is more than one programmer in this world, you know 

[CCS]

In reply to the original idea of this thread, the only way 1000cc will be allowed in F40 is the addition of the third class.

Right now, as it has been in the past, 50% of the entries in F40 are 600's. Go to any of the Unlimited classes and you will see that number drop to 20% or less. If every rider on a 1000 was old enough for F40 this would be easy, but since they are not, we have to figure out how to not screw those riders who have supported the class just on the "promise" a few more 40 plus riders would enter on 1000's.

Welcome to the Rule Committee's hell.....

[kwracer]

How about making the expert races a lap longer, and the amateur races a lap shorter.  that would motivate people to move up and stop sandbagging.

Or heck, let's go all the way and force people to move up based on lap times (maybe a percentage of pole like with qulifying)!  Then us sandbaggers would really waste our time being forced to go slow or risk being moved up!  And bonus!  there'd be fewer "slow" experts!  lol.

I kjnow, i know, I'm gonna get a beatin for that one.         

 

[StuartV666]

In reply to the original idea of this thread, the only way 1000cc will be allowed in F40 is the addition of the third class.

Why? Why? WHY??! What is the Official reasoning behind this?

EVERYBODY that has chimed in seems to agree that there are some tracks where 1000s will have an advantage just because of HP. Road Atlanta and Daytona are examples that come to mind. This would *seem* to have the obvious corollary that other tracks will give an advantage to 600s. So, what is wrong with a class where some bikes have an advantage at some tracks and other bikes have an advantage at other tracks?

Most people also seem to agree that "fast guys will go fast" whether they're on 750s or 1000s. So why keep the guys (like me) who can only afford one race bike, and it happens to be a 1000, from entering F40?

We don't have to speculate all that much about what would happen if 1000s were allowed in F40. WERA had the same rules that CCS does now, and they changed them to allow 1000 Supersport (aka Superstock) bikes. If somebody thinks something bad will happen by allowing 1000s in F40, why not check with WERA to see if anything bad actually DID happen when they started allowing them? Mongo? Can you comment, please?!

F40 is supposed to be a class where us old guys can come out and have fun and not have to worry about the typical testosterone-buzzed 20-something out there in his first (or second or third) season on a 600, that is more concerned with winning a $3 piece of wood than whether the guy next to him has to go to work on Monday. Why is there so much angst about allowing 1000s in the class alongside the 750s?? It's a class for old farts. Let the old farts race!

[Super Dave]

Why is there so much angst about allowing 1000s in the class alongside the 750s?? It's a class for old farts. Let the old farts race!

Because the 750's are already allowed to race alongside the 600's. 

I've always been of the opinion that if you're gonna race, buy a bike to race, not try to make a bike fit into a new class or change everything for unique conditions.

That has resulted in more and more and more classes for the concerns of a few individuals.  AHRMA has this problem, and I believe most racing organizations have this problem.

If testosterone is a problem, because I've seen older riders do goofy things in their first (or second or third) season of racing, then track days might be a better option.  Racing IS about competition still.  When I'm tired of that, then I'll stay home and mow the lawn.  Less testosterone.

My opionion.  Your terms and conditions may apply...  :)

[Racingxtc7]

Racing organizations maintain their operations through racers continually entering races. 

This is true BUT only because raceroad organazation have grown custom to putting ALL financial burden on the racers. Ever notice that at every single type of sporting event has advertisements of all shapes and sizing. CCS could sent out a promoter to sell the idea of advertising banners for around the race track, stickers and whatever else they can think of. There's a good chance that there is one RV dealership , one Trailer dealership, one Motocycle dealer, one Truck Accessory shop, one whatever local shop near each raceway that would be willing to pay for advertisement and even set up a booth, bring some new RVs to show off.

This new revenue could be the purse money, used to reduse entry fees or whatever.

GRIDDING- I like the idea of gridding based on lap times from practise. If someone is racing both a 500cc and a 1000cc bike, there laps times from the 500 will come from the lightweight practise while there lap times from the 1000 will come from there unlimited practise. Its a little more work and you'd probably not want the last prastice group be the first race, not that any of us would want that anyway.

NEW CLASSES- One class I really belive should start up again is the 250GP! There has been atless FOUR 250gp bikes at every CCS weekend(midwest) which is more than can be said for the ultra lightweight class. Plus, the class will grow quickly because some many people have them but refuse to race with CCS because to the lack of the class so they drive farther to go do an ahrma or wera event. On top of that there's people like myself that would love to race a 250gp bike but doesn't buy one because of the lack of the class.

Having the 25min GT races is great because is something different.
F40 races, you guys rock! It just as fast as the normal races.

[Super Dave]

Ok, work backwards from this...

The AMA doesn't promote their event.  Race tracks start by paying the AMA about a half million to show up, then they, the promoter - not the AMA,  spend more money on advertising and putting up those banners.  Then the people show up to see the show.

Burden on racers?

I still pay an entry fee for my AMA event, and i still pay the promoter a good sum for practice.  Oh, and the purse money for an AMA event is an utter joke.  Ever wonder why you don't see a guy like Robbie Jensen racing a lot of AMA events?  He can make more money racing club level contingency races.

Going out and getting sponsors to adorn the track with banners would cost money.  And getting people to see the banners would take advertising dollars that would increase costs.  And look around the local club paddock.  Is it up to par? 

Even then, I would prefer that spectators come to see me, not a banner.  I'm sure that spectators at Road Atlanta were there to see Mat Mladin, not Makita banners.


250 GP already exists in lightweight grand Prix.

[Racingxtc7]

250 GP already exists in lightweight grand Prix.

You should probably get out and ride a GP machine because its NO! fun what so ever racing against bikes that 10mph slower than you in the corners then 20mph faster than you in the straight. they gap you just enough so you can't get them on the braking, if you do make up the difference then you usually catch them by the apex, losing all corner speed, try the outside, they move over on you, go to the inside and they out motor you coming off the corner. The last LWGP race I spent the entire race stuck behind some 3-4sec slower squid because he kept moving across the track under brakes, or I'd be completely next him and him just turn in on top of me making me slam on the brakes. I show up every weekend for just one race 125GP, the ONLY race there isn't big heavy slow cornering designed for pubic highway motorcycles.

[Super Dave]

I used to own and race a 250 GP bike.

As for speed differentials, etc...

That's classically known as racing.

A 250GP bike should be competitive against 600's.  Enter Middleweight Grand Prix.

[CounterSteerer]

You should probably get out and ride a GP machine because its NO! fun what so ever racing against bikes that 10mph slower than you in the corners then 20mph faster than you in the straight. they gap you just enough so you can't get them on the braking, if you do make up the difference then you usually catch them by the apex, losing all corner speed, try the outside, they move over on you, go to the inside and they out motor you coming off the corner. The last LWGP race I spent the entire race stuck behind some 3-4sec slower squid because he kept moving across the track under brakes, or I'd be completely next him and him just turn in on top of me making me slam on the brakes. I show up every weekend for just one race 125GP, the ONLY race there isn't big heavy slow cornering designed for pubic highway motorcycles.

Someone should tell STEVE WENNER he is not supposed to win all those GP races on his 250 and he is usually in the top 5 in GT Lights and that is on a 125.  If the motorcycles you race against now are big heavy slow motorcycles designed for public highway roads you want those replaced with faster more agile 250 bikes so you can be more competitive?

[Racingxtc7]

250GP class would make many of the "REGULAR" racers who are at "EVERY" race weekend happy. HHHMMMM, wasn't there someone who was just saying how its important to keep the racers who attend every event HAPPY because they are the ones that support CCS. Not too mention that would be one more class that the 125gp bikes would be legal for and I'm sure most would sign up for.

Whats the problem?
Don't like more revenue?
Too much pager work?
Is it against the Flagger's Union too wave the flag one more time?

[StuartV666]

Because the 750's are already allowed to race alongside the 600's. 

Don't you mean 600s are allowed in this 750 class?

I've always been of the opinion that if you're gonna race, buy a bike to race, not try to make a bike fit into a new class or change everything for unique conditions.
[snip]
If testosterone is a problem, because I've seen older riders do goofy things in their first (or second or third) season of racing, then track days might be a better option.  Racing IS about competition still.  When I'm tired of that, then I'll stay home and mow the lawn.  Less testosterone.

It seems to me that this logic yields the inevitable conclusion that there shouldn't a F40 class at all. If you don't follow that, then please explain to me what the purpose is in having a F40 class when there is already a class with the same rules, but no age restriction.

[Super Dave]

250GP class would make many of the "REGULAR" racers who are at "EVERY" race weekend happy. HHHMMMM, wasn't there someone who was just saying how its important to keep the racers who attend every event HAPPY because they are the ones that support CCS. Not too mention that would be one more class that the 125gp bikes would be legal for and I'm sure most would sign up for.

Whats the problem?
Don't like more revenue?
Too much pager work?
Is it against the Flagger's Union too wave the flag one more time?

I guess I'm trying to understand why you'd add a 250GP class when there is already a lightweight grand prix class. 

It's basically the same as adding a 600 Supersport class when there is already a middleweight supersport class.

And adding classes?  I say eliminate all superbike classes, period, so that there is more valuable race time.  Races were longer at one time.  There was more practice too. 

[Super Dave]

Don't you mean 600s are allowed in this 750 class?

No, I mean that F40 is still predominately entered by guys over 40 on 600's.  And the 750's are allowed.  Add the 1000's and the class structure and entry habits become different in that format, 600 to 1000 production fours.

It seems to me that this logic yields the inevitable conclusion that there shouldn't a F40 class at all. If you don't follow that, then please explain to me what the purpose is in having a F40 class when there is already a class with the same rules, but no age restriction.

I'll agree with that. 

Why not have a powder puff class for the ladies?  A class for riders that are far sighted?  Over 50?  Develop a class.  Your birthday is in November?  Here's a class.

I think the current development of new classes to...

I'm not sure what it does.  Formula 40 is for older riders that want another class to compete in?  I suppose.  To get away from the guys with all the test?  Well, then the F40 riders wouldn't be in other races then, I guess.  So, it takes time from the whole program.  Again, reducing practice time, shortening races. 

I love motorcycle racing.  But it's painful to wade through all the tons and tons of classes.  AHRMA has done the same thing.  I don't see them building things up because of that.