LRRS Temporarily bans certain HJC helmets

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I stopped getting concussions when I switched to Suomy.  The BSI rating is the reason.  Snell helmets are too stiff for a motorcycle rider.
Jeremy, your head has always looked a bit swolen to me.  Didn't you used to wear a helmet to school on that short bus?
(J/K, glad you're OK!)

[funsizeracing]

It's the foam on the inside that absorbs the impact.  Too hard and your brain still gets rattled, too soft and you just smush the pavement.  I crashed in a CL-12, didin't think I'd hit that hard but I don't remember it.

[Super Dave]

True...but if the exterior shell is hard, the internal impact can be "fast" where on some where the shell is designed to be less rigid, the shell is part of the process that slows the impact.

I'd like to know how a CL is able to pass certifications, yet HJC says it's not for racing.  And where on the helmet does it say this.

[HAWK]

I'd like to know how a CL is able to pass certifications, yet HJC says it's not for racing.  And where on the helmet does it say this.

Dave I believe the certifications are meant to be a minimum standard.  A DOT approved helmet meets a certain minimum standard of protection but may or may not meet the Snell minimum. Snell is better than DOT but doesn't mean that 2 snell rated helmets are equal. If I have a bag certification standard that requires the bag to hold 10 pounds without ripping and you make a bag that can hold 30 pounds without ripping your bag can carry my certification and so can John Smiths, which can hold 15 pounds. Both bags are certified for a 10 pound load, which is better if you accidentally overload?

I don't believe that HJC specifically states that the CL/CS lines should not be used in competition, Just that the AC line was developed/recommended for competition

[Super Dave]

There is no research that states one standard is better than another.

And the CL "meets or exceeds Snell & DOT standards"...
http://www.hjchelmets.com/cl14.htm

Same as their AC
http://www.hjchelmets.com/ac12.htm


If these standards are the minimum, then someone please link to standards that are necessarily above them?

I use BSI helmets.  I think that it's better, but there is no research that shows it to be necessarily better than a Snell or DOT helmet.

[Super Dave]

If I have a bag certification standard that requires the bag to hold 10 pounds without ripping and you make a bag that can hold 30 pounds without ripping your bag can carry my certification and so can John Smiths, which can hold 15 pounds. Both bags are certified for a 10 pound load, which is better if you accidentally overload?

I don't believe that HJC specifically states that the CL/CS lines should not be used in competition, Just that the AC line was developed/recommended for competition

I'll agree that I looked at the release from HJC stating their "recommendation" on using the AC.

As for standards...and helmets...

There are a lot of helmet manufacturers out there with varying degrees of manufacturing quality, etc.  If it were simply a case of the standard were so wide, I would believe that Jerry Wood and the safety staff at Loudon would have also raised questions about other lower costing helmets that aren't neccessarilly "recommended" for racing...

And if i street rode...would I want a helmet with less protection?  I think I have more to hit on the street.

[jer271]

hey K3................................. ...... :lmao:that was funny though!

[HAWK]

There is no research that states one standard is better than another.

And the CL "meets or exceeds Snell & DOT standards"...
http://www.hjchelmets.com/cl14.htm

Same as their AC
http://www.hjchelmets.com/ac12.htm


If these standards are the minimum, then someone please link to standards that are necessarily above them?

I use BSI helmets.  I think that it's better, but there is no research that shows it to be necessarily better than a Snell or DOT helmet.

Dave, there are hundreds of DOT approved helmets (just for clarity we are only going to discuss full face since snell will not test open face helmets) which do not carry the snell rating. Since the only requirements for a snell rating are submission of said helmet to snell and said helmet passing the tests I have to conclude that the snell rating is more difficult to receive. I'll read that as a higher standard.

As to the appropriateness of the snell rating to racing, snell has a special rating for automotive competition, the SA rating. Maybe the motorcycle community needs to petition the foundation to develop a standard for motorcycle racing?

http://www.smf.org/standards/pdf/mstds_cmp.pdf

[Super Dave]

Wanna go further?

Snell doesn't batch test helmets.  So, you can send in twelve helmets, I'm just pulling a number, and all the helmets that are produced get the sticker, regardless of the variations in production during many runs going through thousands of helmets.

Regardless, both HJC helmets carry a Snell sticker.  There are other standards too, BSI/EU and DOT, but neither has been proven to be better than another.

Many different ways to fill the bag with ten or thirty pounds.  Regardless, the said HJC helmet, which carries both DOT and Snell standards, similar to other low cost brands and models and higher cost brands and models, are not the focus of a simple safety concern based on outright experiences of a safety crew in a racing organization...too many concussions for the get off...and others on this thread are even expressing a potential problem.

I don't recognize any way to completely eliminate concussions through helmet technology.  Give a person a hard enough impact, and one can get it.

Is it the standards fault?  Is it a fault in the specific production of a manufacturers helmet that is not batch tested?  The batch testing might be more telling.

[HAWK]

With reference to the batch testing, or testing at all for that matter. A little reading today and I found that NOBODY tests for DOT compliance, The manufacturer simply certifies that the helmet meets the standard and everybody believes them.

The technologies exits to create new standards based on a specific enviroment. 20 years ago there was a single snell standard for all motorcycle and automotive racing helmets, a while back the auto racing organizations were seeing serious head injuries due to the restrained driver hitting his helmet against the roll bar repeatedly in the same location so the response from snell was a more durable shell. The motorcycle rider was then at risk from the additional stiffness so they split the certification into SA and M. As I said maybe it is time for a motorcycle racing spec.

All things considered if you like HJC helmets why not spend the extra $50-$100 to get the best one they make, this is just not the place to save a few bucks. There are people riding  motorcycles that given the choice between a $200 helmet and going without will choose going without so with that in mind I don't want to see the manufacturers stop making entry level helmets but they don't belong on a racetrack.

[Super Dave]

As I said maybe it is time for a motorcycle racing spec.

Why?  Because street riders don't hit the ground as hard or as often?

I'm not arguing, I just don't understand why.

Regardless, the helmets in question were Snell.  Maybe the problem lies with Snell certifying that helmet, or a mass production flaw. 

I don't wear one, but if a simple look at easy get offs shows something, I'm glad Jerry Wood had the balls to do something. 

[HAWK]

One of the big gripes with the current M snell spec is the maximum allowable G force. A number of authorities in the field are calling for a lower figure, the M spec is currently 300G for 2 milliseconds. Some feel this number should be brought down to 200. That would certainly reduce the chances of a concussion but to do so would require snell to drop the multi strike in the same location rating which they don't want to do. I agree that street riders fall every bit as often and every bit as hard as we do but if we introduce  a new standard then maybe people could choose based on what they do. Right now the sanctioning body is stuck with the available rating systems and we're stuck with the standards they chose to require.