What should I do?

[CBRman93]

Ok guys, check this out. I am currently running a Leo Vince slip-on on my 93 F2 with practically stock jetting. The only thing I have done right now is different springs and needles and a K&N filter.
What I want to know is should I put my V&H Supersport headers/SS2R canister back on the bike, rejet with bigger main jets, and run race fuel? I have no problem switching even though the Leo looks and sounds better but I'm racing and that stuff really doesn't matter. Know what I mean? The only thing I'm worried about is ground clearance. I have the pegs backed up and the first thing to touch would be the canister if I put the V&H back on.

Let me know someone!!!!! PLEASE!!!!

Ben
CCS #501

OH YEAH....wasn't VIR perfect Monday? I can't wait until the 12-14th!!!!

[Rocketman]

Race fuel burns slower, thats how it fights detonation. Use it only if your bike detonates, otherwise it will slow down.  As far as the jetting goes, no one can jet your bike with out seeing it.(The plugs esp.) Would be nice to dyno test any changes to confirm suspicions.

[ysr612]

I hope you have done the important stuff first.  Suspension and learning to ride.  Once this is done you can think about the power.  

Ox bearing race gas will make more hp and is easier to tune.  Your bike should take about 92 oct.  You will not start to loose hp untill you go over about 110.

[CBRman93]

Thanks for the info. I do have the riding thing down so far. I cut my lap times at VIR by about 15 sec. just from tire selection and a little suspension tuning. I unfortunately haven't done much to the suspension yet other than a rear shock upgrade. I only wanted to know what I could do with what I have already. I don't plan to put any money into tuning until after I have replaced suspension parts with good stuff(penske, fox, etc......fork revalve, etc.). I can't imagine I could do much to the engine that would make it much more powerful and still be within an alotted budget.
I'm not really looking at being competitive this year. I just want to learn as much as possible.

Thanks

[schpreck]

Dont worry about the engine.  Get some good suspension.  I do alot of suspension work, and lemme tell ya...Circuit One actually has the highest quality internals I've seen.  They're not as popular as Penske, etc.  But DAMN they know their suspension.  Suspension will help you MUCH  more than engine work.  Get a brake upgrade, too.

[Greg Gorman]

Dont worry about the engine.  Get some good suspension... Get a brake upgrade, too.
_________________________________________

Yeah.  What he said.  If you're not going to be competitive, the only thing you can do is improve your corner speed.  The only way to improve corner speed is with knowledge of what to do, track time, and feel.  Knowledge you get from the various racing books and schools, track time you handle with $$, feel you get from suspension and knowledge.  Spend the bucks on yourself first, then suspension, then brakes, then engine.

Greg Gorman

[Super Dave]

Yes, suspension is the only way to go.  That first so you can actually control the motorcycle properly.    

F2's liked having the tubes raised up above the triple clamp about a quarter of an inch.  Seemed like we had the rear shocks set at the stock ride height.  Get a good suspension shop to do some work and to point you in the right direction on how it really should feel.

As for racing fuel....

Horsepower will win races when everything else is equal; rider, suspension set up, traction, etc. etc.

Engines need air and hydrocarbons to move the pistions to create power.

Gasoline works pretty good in a road racing motorcycle in that it has a quick flame speed.  However, it does have limitations.

Racing fuels are all over the map.  Your locally available racing fuel and track fuels are fuels that were designed in the 1970's.  They do produce heat, debris, and a slow flame speed.  To say that "racing fuels burn slower" is incorrect.  There are some fuels out there by companies like Power Mist, Nutec, VP, and some others that are good.  Prices will be more than the locally available fuels, some will be more than $14 a gallon because they are oxygenated.  (Put oxygen in the fuel, you get oxygen in the engine, you get more air to burn and more power.)

The trick is that each fuel, including gasoline, has a certain weight, a specific gravity.  Only so much fuel can go through a jet.  If the fuel is heavy, like gasoline with a specific gravity of .755 (water is 1.0) you would need one particular jet.  If you put in a fuel that is lighter like Turbo Blue Leaded with a specific gravity of .74, it would run rich (too much fuel).  Why?  Because more of the lighter fuel (more burnable hydrocarbons) would go into the engine through the jet and the amount of air entering would be the same.  You would have to put in a smaller jet.

Lets say you put in an oxygenated fuel like Power Mist TO137.  It's specific gravity is .745 but it has 5% oxygen.  Because it is a lighter fuel, you would normally put in a smaller jet.  However, since it has oxygen in the fuel, more air is going into the engine.  Your jetting might be the same as gasoline.

Clear as mud?

Seems like we used 130 main's in our F2's using T111 Power Mist racing fuel.  I'd bet using gasoline you'd use a 132.5 to 135.

[CBRman93]

Thanks for the info Dave. I have a pretty extensive background with fuels and S.G. and all that from being in the Navy for 8 years working with marine turbines. We had to change our settings whenever we switched from DFM to JP-5 type marine diesel. JP-5 is used more for helo's due to anti-icing inhibitors...blah blah blah.

But anyway, I went with the total suspension redo. I just ordered a Penske rear and sent my forks to Traxxion. I can't wait to feel the differnce. I was bullsh..n' with a fellow F2 racer and he had a good setup and said it makes a world of difference.

I also noticed in my last few races that it was more cornerspeeds, confidence, and rider ability more so than just machinery. I didn't place as high as I would have liked but considering what I was racing against, I'd say I was doing pretty darn good. Now with a little help from the upgrades and some track time on the 'new' bike, I hope to do even better.

I think next season or perhaps the latter part of the year, I will try some HP upgrades. I'm still running stock just about everything so I have a few options. But before then it will be brakes. So on to question #2.

I ran EBC HH with stock rotors and they did pretty good. Due to time constraints, I bought OEM pads and have been on them for about 2 race weekends. I think they feel awesome. What can I do to improve braking? I have the braided lines and good fluid. Semi-floaters from Braking with HH? I'm still an early braker and the confidence is starting to come up but I am sure I could benefit from upgrades.

Thanks for all the replies!!!!!

Ben
'93 CBR F2
CCS #501
NESBA #132

[Super Dave]

Good, the Traxxion guys do good work.

Stock pads are under rated.  They do work really well.  If I have a new bike, I run the stock ones until I decide what I want to run, or whomever is willing to supply me with some....

Recently, I have been using the Vesrah pads.  No bed in...just go.  I really like that, and they only require a little lever pressure to make the thing stop.

Often times, better braking comes from proper geometry set up.  Quiz Mike at Traxxion and see if he has any ideas.  In addition, to just beoming comfortable with the forces in braking.

I usually don't get different rotors.  Stock one's seem to work fine.  I do try to have them cryo-ed if I have time.  Seems to keep them from warping.  Had big problems with the Kawasaki rotors warping.

As for lap times, yes, it's corner speed and confidence.  

Admittedly, back in 1993 when I was running F2's, a fast 600 time was a 1:15 and the lap record was a 1:13.  Now a fast running 600 can do a :13, but there has been no official new lap record, although I believe that a guy on an R1 did a 12 or a high eleven.

The HP won't help much in the overall lap time.  Suspension will.

Where are you from?  A good racer or school program would help get the most out of what you do.  If it cost $300 it would be much cheaper than a $2000 engine.  Not to mention more reliable, as long as you're happy on the bike.

[CBRman93]

Thanks again Dave. I'll give Mike a call when I get all my stuff in and on the bike.

I agree with you on the underated OEM pad thing. I don't have much track experience with different pads but years of street riding and I've always opted for the stock stuff mainly for reliability and a no question about them feeling.

I'm from Va Beach, Va. You? I went to Cornerspeed last October and have since spent quite a few days at the track. I mainly do VIR but I had a stint at CMP that ended early due to mechanical stuff. But I am currently racing in the Mid-Atlantic series with CCS and have 3 races under my belt. And a nasty get off!!! Rookie mistake I'm sure!!!

I'll be onthe track again June 10th and racing again the last weekend in June. Hopefully I'll have everything dialed in by then. According to the race results "if" I had finished my last race I would have been in the top 15 of the MWSS so I'm anxious to see how well I'll do with all these upgrades I got going on. I'm aiming for a top 10 finish. I had really thought I wouldn't be competitive but I think I have already proven myself wrong. There are just a few little things I have to work on but they'll all come together with more track time and experience.

Ben

[Super Dave]

I'm from Eagle, Wisconsin, just outside of Milwaukee.

Don't know anyone from Cornerspeed myself.  Who are their "big" instructors?  Or are they mainly a track day program.

Eric Wood up in New Hampshire is very knowledgeable.  I would probably recommend one of his advanced schools.

I'm always surprised how many guys feel they have to buy a new bike, especially as amateurs.  The F2 was very good, and still is good.  I race some vintage bikes for people, and it's cool to bring those bikes to modern races with their little wheels and show guys how fast you can go.

What tires are you using?

[CBRman93]

Cornerspeed is ran by Aaron Stephenson. He usually has some good instructors like Lee Acree. I usually attend his track days. Less expensive than NESBA and I think safer all around.

I'm currently running Michelin Pilots. I have used Dunlop D208's. It really depends on availability and pricing. I'm on a tight budget so it's what I can get that goes on. I would like to try the new Michilen H2's. I've heard good things about them.

[Super Dave]

Trick with the difference between Michelin and Dunlop is the height differences between the tires.  Michelin rears are much shorter than Dunlop rears; Michelin fronts are much taller than Dunlop fronts.

When you make that change, the geometry of the bike is COMPLETELY different.

I have always liked the Michelins, and set up my bikes to use them.  The Dunlops seemed to slide, allbeit consistently, too early.  The new Pirelli's have a feel like the Michelins but are a little more forgiving to those who are not so familiar with Michelins, have the heights of the Dunlops, and do seem to continue to work pretty well even when completely hammered.

They would be worth a try.  

[1slowguy]

I feel like I should take part in this F2 conversation... but i dont know why..


Cbrman....  I think i found your fellow BullSh#$er      

[CBRman93]

Join in all ya want Steve. Dave and I are just BS'n about racin' stuff. Read through all this. He's thrown out some good info.

Another question Dave.
I just installed a manual cam chain tensioner and followed all the steps. I left about 1/4'' play in the top of the chain. I'm guessing that I was supposed to turn the engine forward until the slack gets bad and adjust then. I hope so cuz I dont want to take it apart again. What a chore just to get the valve cover off.....geez!